example, I don’t think he had the slightest personal 
gain in mind. He was going straight to the jugular. 
You go to the guy who has the most to say for the 
country that you want to see succeeding. So I am 
going to address myself to the head of the 
country. He happened also to be a very intelligent 
man so that made the conversation easier and 
more exciting. That is the way he related to 
Trudeau, but not proud of himself because he was 
talking to the head of the nation. He would have 
done the same in Toronto. He really fought to 
repeal the Spadina expressway. He called it the 
cement kimono. He had a strong sense of these 
things.